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Voir la version complète : No need to credit outside content anymore!



Patrick210
05/10/2006, 21h11
There's been a discussion at Renderosity lately and I just wanted to let eveyone here know that if you use purchased or free content, it isn't necessary to give credit to where you got it from. So buy the great car models, or DAZ content, or whatever you like, and render it and just let everyone assume you did it all yourself. That's the new ethic.

Pete Exxtreme
05/10/2006, 21h21
Rendero is more and more is lousy Website in my mind... After it's just a matter of honesty as you can give credit on your own about the "external" items you've used if so ....

LoneGunman
05/10/2006, 23h37
I never understood concept behind "credits are must" term of use for freebies anyways ?

If you are releasing a free model with conditions such as credit is a must, maybe, just maybe, you should not released it at all. Giving is only noble if you expect nothing, but you get something in return anyways, not by request.

Credit should be given only if user feels like it. Claming that you made it (and you did not) or/and seling it is whole another story. Same goes for purchased content. :hi:

Patrick210
05/10/2006, 23h50
My opinion is that if you post a render, it is assumed you created everything yourself unless you state otherwise. Others now disagree and say it's not necessary to acknowledge that objects in your render came from someone else. I think it's disingenuous to post a render full of outside content without stating so and thus let everyone assume you created it all yourself. Apparently I'm old-fashioned and the new crowd thinks it's okay to grab whatever you like, render it, and pretend you did it all yourself. I see it all the time now, and I just can't understand this attitude.

jbshorty
05/10/2006, 23h54
Renderosity may say it's acceptable for members to post their "creations" without crediting the content authors. But that may be against the rights of the content author, depending on the terms that were agreed to by the purchaser. Honest people will surely give credit where it's due, but ethics don't always co-exist with anyonymous online profiles. I think it won't be long before this backfires. Renderosity should not be encouraging such behavior...

Sketchy
06/10/2006, 01h09
I think it's not the legalities that is at issue here. Like if you buy a model from a content provider, you can do anything you want with it without acknowledging the creator or the company where you bought it from. Personally, I am not against this practice. For example, if I sell a model to somebody, it makes sense that I don't have to be credited for it because I was already compensated for it in the form of money.

At issue here, I think, is whether it's appropriate to take all the credit even if you just assembled a group of models and rendered them, then claim that you are this bigshot artist.lol

EDIT:
I also think that these content sellers are overly compensated because they are selling stuff that are not unique. It's nothing similar to buying a painting. What you are buying from DAZ or Content Paradise is nothing different from buying a doll from Walmart or an electronic item.

Couerl
06/10/2006, 02h40
I agree that it is disingenous and leaves a lot of room for cheats and phony's. The nobility of giving away models doesn't demand by itself that mention be made true, that kind of nobility may only exist in those who would refuse to use others work to begin with. I personally don't care if anyone gives me credit for anything I give out, (it's mostly junk anyway and we all gotta learn somewhere...lol) but I'd suggest to anyone with the inclination to intentionally pass such work off as their own that 3D is still a close knit society and they will be spotted and so long as comments are permitted, they will get feedback on their "work" like they deserve.
I just saw my first Carrara "content installer" today as well and it's good that issues get brought up like this. I'm not sure what to make of such a thing yet, I'll restrain any skepticism, but there's nothing wrong with considering changes such as these, dubious at best.

Steven

bwtr
06/10/2006, 03h43
I like to acknowledge that items have been sourced but only on these sites where people are involved in actually making those things.

However, as an ex pro photographer I consider myself an image maker.

The totallity of my imagery, artistically, is more important than who or what or from where parts of the imagery where sourced.

For example, trying to get lighting and rendering "exactly" right in Carrara is a real pain often. I have no hesitation in doing a lot of reworking in Photoshop--an app I am really conversant with. From an image point of view I can see no reason where this postwork needs to be advised.

Good imagery can be produced in every app--its not the app which makes the image--the app is just the "brush" in the artists hands.

jbshorty
06/10/2006, 04h41
perhaps it's not necessarry to credit all the parts that someone didn't make themself, but they should focus attention on the parts they did create. That is more important. Because every image contains "something" made possible by a purchased element, whether it was a texture, an HDR, or a rendering plug-in. Certainly, nobody credits those authors for every rendered image... :)

sketchy, i agree with you. a content creator wouldn't really be selling these products if the money wasn't compensation enough. Still i don't want to see people taking credit where it's not due. Hopefully, the frauds will be exposed by the CG community when necessary...

E-Z
06/10/2006, 07h18
So buy the great car models, or DAZ content, or whatever you like, and render it and just let everyone assume you did it all yourself.
yes
thats the American way

now when your done doing that,go buy poser
and slap some cloths on there pre made models and show everyone what you made all by your self .

the app reminds me of playing dress up with dolls
now how many guys use poser? raise your hands:hi:

medeamajic
06/10/2006, 11h24
This thread sound like it should be posted over at daz3d.com. I hope none of us car about content or who to credit.

E-Z
07/10/2006, 05h14
when you pay for some thing then that gives you the legal right that its is yours
but that dont give you the legal right to tell everyone you made it.

now if you get some thing free, then its best for you to give credit
and thats not to much to ask for.

jbshorty
07/10/2006, 17h27
This thread sound like it should be posted over at daz3d.com. I hope none of us car about content or who to credit.

i don't use and will probably never use content. still, it concerns me to think of some dingus stealing the work of another...

Patrick210
07/10/2006, 17h56
I'm probably going to delete my Renderosity gallery soon. Over there we've been told in no uncertain terms, that people should assume that everyone uses outside content, and that no one is required to credit anything. When I studied art we weren't even allowed to draw from photographs. Now, you download a stock photo, run a filter on it and Bam!, you're an artist. I don't know what happened to creativity. How can you be an artist, when you can can only render models you can download. You would have to tailor your concepts to what is available. Seems like you should come up with your concept first, not see what objects there are and try to figure out something to make with them. Honestly, I'm fed up with the whole attitude over there. Generic Poser people are everywhere and they don't even see how pathetic it is. You can't paint a portrait with Poser.

LoneGunman
07/10/2006, 21h07
Hey, Patrick:)

I used to be member of Renderosity almost since start. It seems that lot of people are not interested in improving their work (will not call it an ART, it's subjective thing, what might be art for you may not seen as art by me).

Lingering at certain point and just beeing part of community for the sake of belonging to something is what some people choose to do over there.

There is no bigger excitement at Renderosity then getting a lot of comments on your work (even though they have nothing to do with actual work and they are always positive). Popularity contest at it's best.

Commenting a lot on what others do will give you lot of comments back, and in all that feedback back and forth, somewhere along the line you become "popular", a Renderosity "STAR". Hell, if you are very persistant, they might even vote you in to be an ARTIST of the month, wow !

After that (presuming that you are truely interested in improving you work), you start questioning all that positivity, and try yourself somewhere else, I mean, no one is that good, 40+ comments on each image, and all of them are like: WOW, BEAUTIFULL, BEST I EVER SEEN, EXCELLENT, WE WANT TUTORIAL, AMAZING, etc.

Than, a biggest test for every Renderosity "master" comes along: the MIGHTY CG Talk. Two things usualy happen: Or you get of your high horse and realize how unimportant you are, and what a rookie you are, and leave Renderosity (cuz they all lied to you with their pretty lil' comments, just to get their own), or you go back to your safe place and start bitching that CG Talk sucks and nobody over there knows what real art is and how little respect they have for your "glorious" work.

Above did not happen to me, but I seen it happen to lots of others.

I left Renderosity, cuz I realy did not want to be part of that machine anymore, I wanted to go further, to improve and have more time to work on my projects...:hi:

Pete Exxtreme
07/10/2006, 21h50
I cannot say anything better than above :)

But the problem in CGTalk is that you mess with best, so it's the opposite way of Renderosity, and that been average let you no chance to have help to improve yourself cos' almost noone will critize (in good or bad) your work. Also they are too many submissions a day and it's imposssible to seriously have a look on all of them, so speaking for myself i can understand that i don't have too many input on my artwork in it. :innocent:

This is why this forum here is a good place, because you can meet almost all the levels (but top the top star of CGI obviously lol , even if very brillant people are part of this community) and you can find people to help you to improve in CGI. This is probably why artwork made with prebuit content is not warmly welcome over here....:dry: so here no pb with credits about premade stuff, and i think that the people who are using some naturally mention it....:hi:

Couerl
07/10/2006, 23h32
It's a catch-22 because you post something at Rocity and get: "wow, gee, neat" or at CGTalk and get: "Gee, that's a real shame, get a new career". lol

Here is someplace in the middle, but not too many comments good or bad anyway. :ermm:

Rocity has always been fluff and you can't learn anything by hearing "wow" a million times... Maybe there's a cure somewhere in the middle to help people learn, but I don't know it.

jbshorty
08/10/2006, 00h06
...Here is someplace in the middle, but not too many comments good or bad anyway...

honest & helpful criticism without condescending attitudes seems to be the normal at polyloop. I've never witnessed someone's work receive insult here, just offer suggestions to make it better. i think that's why i find myself browsing Polyloop more than any other CG forum. And luckily, Thomas made it very clear about keeping content off the shores of this tiny island... :)

E-Z
08/10/2006, 03h43
I used to be member of Renderosity for about 1 years
i would NOT Recommend that place to no one.:blush2:

i would rather have a 400 pound women Fart in my face after eating a Cabbage Dinner,
before i go back there again :yuk:

taz20
08/10/2006, 04h55
Hi Patrick,
I read your thread, and knew how it would end up. I mentioned something about the same arguements and repeat "how do I do this with one mouse click..." type topics back when Daz bought Eovia, and you've just fallen victim to one of the endless Poser debates.
Other classics include:
- Is Poser art?
- Is Aiko old enough to appear in nude images?
- I paid for it/tweaked the textures, thats as good as making it myself (your forum topic Patrick)
- Large breasts/nudity=high viewing figures & thats so unfair/fair (depending on the type of Poser images you make).
- Endless debates on censorship.
- "Why does the rest of the CG community hate us?"
- Postwork vs no postwork.
There are others, but this list is so you can steer clear of the basic Poser hotspots in the future:p

I'd say don't worry about it too much - this is just one of those things to ignore because you'll never change their minds on any of these topics no matter what you say - its how Poser works and encourages its users to think the same way. If something looks too familiar, assume it's been bought and ignore it, its not worth the effort mate.
Personally I'll give credit when I use something I haven't made because I consider it good manners, but thats just me.

Khris
08/10/2006, 12h09
Well, Renderosity can say what they want, they don't have power to change law and international treaties. IANAL, so take the rest of the post with the necessary grain of salt, but this the knowledge I have on this precise point.

In French, copyright law is precise on this point, and jurisprudence is constant. Copyright is an association of several rights (right to copy, right to use, right to distribute, ...). One of this right is the right to be recognized as the author of the work.

In the French law, this right is something that you cannot sell nor take, even if you want. Any part of a contract that would say the opposite is considered as void and without effect.

This means that, in France, if you take something that is even free and/or in the public domain, you still have to say who is the original author, or else you can be sued for copyright violation.

Now the interesting part: US and France are both (with others) part of several copyright international treaties, mainly the Rome convention and the Berne convention.

The main point of those convention is that each country that are part of it recognise the rights of the other countries for work produced in the country. This mean that US has accepted, under international law, to recognise the French copyright rights for works made in France or by French citizen. This means that French copyright law applies for French-made work, even in US (and in other countries that are part of the conventions).

This means that if the work you're using has been made in France or by frenchies, wherever you get it, on Renderosity US site or anywhere else, and if you are a citizen of one of the country that are part of the convention, then you have to respect the French law. You thus _have_ to say who is the original author of the work you used. If you don't, you can be sued by the original author in your own country by your own law system.

That's the international law. This is why US-produced work is protected by copyright in France and in other countries, and why French-product are protected by US copyright, even if french producer don't have to fill copyright registration form in US for this.

Now, people can say what they want on the Renderosity forum. But if you don't want to have legal problem, please consider those information, and don't hesitate to ask to legal expert about it.

Thomas
08/10/2006, 13h09
I used to be member of Renderosity for about 1 years
i would NOT Recommend that place to no one.:blush2:

i would rather have a 400 pound women Fart in my face after eating a Cabbage Dinner,
before i go back there again :yuk:E-Z : this kind of comment won't make progress this discussion, like beeing vulgar...
Don't forget that giving arguments is always better...

medeamajic
08/10/2006, 23h16
I think Poser is a great program for beginners and the use of premade content is OK. I had fun with Poser and premade content for several years. The problem is when daz3d.com has contests that must use their content in order to be eligible to win prizes (Daz dollars) to buy more content. It would be much better to encourage the beginners to improve their skills and invest in Carrara or Hexagon.

Speaking of daz, what happened to the Carrara only website with Carrara tutorials and a forum to report bugs. I guess the DAZ staff is to busy selecting the new artist of the month to build the new Carrara and Hexagon website. It has been over 5 months since the Daz buy out.

I know at some forums Hiro, Aiko and Vicki are treated like Gods but not here. This forum is a decent forum to ask question and give advice. I hope we do see more XSI, C4D, LightWave, True Space, 3DS Max and even a few Maya users. I think with the name Polyloop more users other than Carrara and Hexagon will join soon. I hope we do not see question about content or new shoes for Vicki and Aiko.

sailor-ed
08/10/2006, 23h23
I pulled my gallery in disgust from RO quite a while ago and whole heartedly agree with Patrick210 and Lone Gunman. THIS forum is restoring my interest in 3d rendering. May it continue to represent individuals who want to create images that develop from their own inspiration.

medeamajic
09/10/2006, 00h25
I think of how exited I was when I made my first animation with Poser and RDS. I think I made the skelton walk and then jump in Poser and then I made my name flip and rotate in RDS. I can do much more now but it was a stepping stone. I think it is OK for beginners to use what they need (Poser and content) to post in the galleries. Overtime their 3-D skills should mature. I do not want to be mean spirited to Poser users or anyone that uses premade content because I do think using Poser and content is art and should be part of the 3-D forums. Those users just should not expect rave reviews or to win any contest.

Did any of you start figure animation with Poser and the free pre made models? I did.

bwtr
09/10/2006, 02h02
Look we have premade skys, trees, terrains premade---all of which we can modify to our liking IN CARRARA!.

Thats NO different than loading a Poser item into your screen!

I like Patrick, was brought up to paint and draw without using a photo.

The principle is ok---but once you go past a pencil or brush and start using a computer to do your work--with all its "helpers" ---the principles are pretty much a farce really.

If anyone is doing art to sell at a gallery, you all know you sell the image ( the totality of the imagery) to someone who "likes it"---they dont give a stuff how it was made!

medeamajic
09/10/2006, 05h52
I myself could never take pride in my 3-D art work if I used premade content. For others it is OK.

Pete Exxtreme
09/10/2006, 07h22
When a move producer release a movie he/she give credit to all the staff and companies who participate to it, actors, cameramen, car rental, various directors etc...

Following those new rules, then he/she could not give any credit to those people as he/she did payed them for their job ??? :huh:

Giving credit for premade content change nothing to the final CGI picture done : it's just a matter of intellectual honesty in the end....:p

.....but personnaly i prefer Francisco Cortina (http://www.cortinadigital.com/) characters made with 3dsMAx (and a lot of work and talent) to Poser/Daz one....:w00t:

"No Pain, No Gain" they said.....:hi:

bwtr
09/10/2006, 07h26
Pete!---you READ the movie credits?????

Pete Exxtreme
09/10/2006, 07h33
NO ! :w00t: but they DO exists....:hi:

bwtr
09/10/2006, 07h43
Pete, if you know the history, the credits are only there due to Unions.

As an ex pro photographer, every one needed to know , which camera, which lens, which apperture, which film!

Two seconds in the printing darkroom-- or Photoshop--- and all that information is meaningless!

Some of the best, most valuable paintings are oil on brown paper followed by pastel! About as NO NO as you can get. Who really cares--it's the end imagery that is of overriding importance, not the tools, not the craft--the image!

Couerl
09/10/2006, 07h56
I read the credits, unless of course I leave half-way through the movie in disgust like King Kong. I think when the T-Rex's started playing the highwire act in that canyon I got up and left... Same goes for the vast majority of content/poser renders. You don't have to hang around for the credits to know they are coming, but if you're level of disbelief is such that you actually think what was made is good, then hang around, pat them on the back and tell them "wow, great image!" for me. lol

Couerl
09/10/2006, 08h05
not the tools, not the craft--the image!

Well, not entirely true my friend and really it depends on who is "buying" it... It's totally about the craft to me and has little to do with the outcome. I have much more appreciation for some relatively bad "hand made" art than the finest "reproduction" art anywhere...

seleneyue
25/10/2006, 17h54
I agree about the buying vs free content thing... but please be nicer to us content users T_T (I know i just singled myself out for attack) but renderosity's openly promoting not crediting is just bad ethics... though it is annoying to track down all content you used...
I take offense to the photomanipulation comment from earlier. It isn't until you actually do it that you realize how difficult it is. I've done a couple, and it definitly qualifies as art, though i was a skeptic before. The problem with Poser is basically crediting: I created this vs I created this from someone else's work... it's a big no-no in photomanip to not credit... even if you hand-painted 99% of the details by yourself.. and paid for the photo.

Dann-O
13/11/2006, 15h19
Been a rosity member for a while. I fidn many aspects of it annoying but I am an avid wings user and there is an active wings forum over there. I Thought a few times aobu tleaving in disgust but now I just don't care enough. I post at CG talk from time to time it can be a tough crowd but I welcome the honesty of the place and enjoy real critiques occasionally give a few myself. Will probably keep posting at rosity for a while.
I like this site so far want to get more involved here.

Piem
13/11/2006, 21h04
Pete!---you READ the movie credits?????

hé hé (he he) Dito :hi:
I ALWAYS stay until the screen is turned off

corlis
15/11/2006, 09h14
Such a debate always comes up in one or another way when it's about art. In music discussions it's about the samples that are being used by others. I also would like to mention, that most of these "model-reused renders" are very similar to doing a collage on a canvas - reusing old newspapers or different photographies. All in all the question that arises truly is (and already got mentioned): "Is it art if you reuse things that have been done by others?"